Very nice "How to with pictures!" I wanted to do something like this when I put in ours but I honestly didn't know it was available. That "less than smart comment of mine" again points to my not researching like I should have! If I had of taken a breath and looked instead of rushing to get it in...I wouldn't be as worried as I have been lately. I did finally research the liner I put down, it is 22 Mill, a Lowe's special...a lot thinner than what I remember you use...correct? For a backing I laid down traction rubber which we use in loading our paper rolls on the floor of trucks. It keeps them from sliding and the mat is very resistant to punctures and tearing. They are made of a rubber like car tires. In the end it really helps strengthen the liner.

I have to say again...my hat is off to you and your crew...there is a lot of pride in what you guys do and in how efficient you guys are at adapting and working out new things. I mentioned to you that my dad is a retired Master Plumber of 40 years...the work you guys were doing I have seen and occasionally helped my dad do over the years. All the way back to when seals were packed with "rope," seated into the flange with a ball peen hammer and a block chisel, then we heated and poured lead in to make the seal water/air tight! They last forever but were a lot of work.

I really like the air feature in the drain. All I can say is I wish I had found your site before I started the pond. We would have had a way better pond than we have right now. That said...lets not forget...I have worms in my pond!!!

Yea Baby!!!

Alan

Wow you guys really are professional. If you worked around Jersey, I would have had you guys install my pondless waterfall as it's taking about 4 months longer than planned.

Very clean Eric,

A (dumb?) question; I am very interested in your "hybrid" ideas. How, or, can this work in a rocked pond, or more traditional watergarden style pond?

Perhaps using a mesh over the drain to prevent unwanted materials from entering?

What is the largest solids this system is set up to handle?

I am going to attend your upcoming Kent Wallace "buried hatchet" classes and I suppose these questions could wait, but just in case I am having too much fun to remember to ask...

Thanks for the openess with which you share. A great contribution!

larryc

Larry,

When we build a hybrid eco-system pond/water garden pond with dedicated koi pond technology, we will put a little ring of flagstone or slate around the drain in a mosaic pattern to prevent gravel from entering the drain. The bottom drain dome cover is set approximately 3/4" above the floor of the pond. The ring of flagstone gives us a set back of approximately 18" to 24" from the dome and we will barely cover the pond with 1/ 1/2" to 2" gravel so it's harder for large koi to move the gravel around and even if some of the gravel migrates towards the bottom drain it won't get impacted with gravel. Here is a photograph of a large pond we installed at an industry trade event back in the summer of 2007 showing the technique.



Note: When we are building hybrid style eco-system ponds with bottom drains and gravel we do our very best to leave the liner as wrinkle free as possible just in case the homeowner decides to have the gravel removed in the future. There is a depth threshold that the gravel is or is not necessary for aesthetic reasons if you will. When you push past the depth of 36", the bottom of the pond begins to disappear visually and the fish appear to be all that is noticed. In ponds that are 18" to 24" & 24" to 36" especially with plant shelves it would seem that the use of gravel is more necessary to help naturalize the bottom of a rubber liner pond to hide wrinkles and such.

I would not recommend using any mesh over the dome of the bottom drain. It would only prevent the very solids you are hoping to remove from the pond. You would be surprised at the large amount of solids that make it through the bottom drain circuit. Large water logged leaf debris, fish poop and you should see what you get after a nice little wind storm. It always amazes me!

Our willingness to share is in part what makes our pond forum such a comfortable place for everyone to document their experiences so that we may all learn from each other. We will look forward to hearing some of your story & experiences and I will look forward to meeting you very soon.

The Pond Digger

Question regarding bottom drains. This is an excerpt from a web-site:

"Also it is not if your bottom drain will ever leak, but when it will leak around your pond liner. Why cut a hole in a perfectly good liner when you don't need too? No matter how well a bottom drain is installed, they seem to always leak at the seal between the liner and the drain at some point. We strongly recommend that you do not use one in your plans for a watergarden."

Is this true?

Some of the bottom drains we have seen on the market over the past ten years have been less than appropriate to say the least. Bottom drain technology in the water garden & koi pond industry has improved exponentially over the last 3 to 5 years. Many of the manufactured bottom drains over the years I would not touch with a ten foot pole. There are several quality bottom drains available on the market today that I would recommend without reservation.

Silicone is recommended by many manufacturers as the sealant on the bottom drain connection. Silicone certainly has a life expectancy so yes it could be an issue within 7 to 10 years. That is why we use a specific polyurethane sealant on all of our bottom drain connections. The sealant we use has a longer life span and remains flexible allowing for slight expansion and contraction during seasonal changes without issues.

Many bottom drain instructions don't bother to suggest a ring of concrete around the bottom drain during installation to create a stable base. In fact, I have yet to see a set of instructions from a manufacturer that suggest encasing the bottom drain in concrete, period. Encasing the bottom drain in concrete below the liner helps to keep the connection stable over the years.

If (or when) you have an issue with a bottom drain that is correctly installed in liner, a repair is really not the end of the world. Should the connection at the bottom drain leak on a liner installation, the pond would not drain completely over night. Believe it or not, a bottom drain leak it is a much slower process than you would think. The fear of loosing all your fish over night is a bit overkill. You would experience slight water loss in the early stages that should be detectable during routine maintenance.

Regarding all liner seals in general: We have seen skimmer face plates and waterfall face plates fail over the years for a variety of reasons like Aluminum screws rusting out, invasive roots pushing against the seal, liner installed without any slack and such. As stated above, the water loss is noticeable during routine maintenance and is relatively easy to repair. The repair would not be much different with a bottom drain other than making preparations for housing your fish during the repair. The flip side of that is; it is suggested that most pond owners without bottom drains, need to drain their ponds annually (removing the fish) for spring cleaning. That's an annual draining of the pond and handling of the fish anyway. A double edged sword. Pick your poison.

Many would say, "The maintenance benefits of a bottom drain far out weight the inconvenience of a possible need for repair, a decade away."

The Pond Digger

That was my other question. Living here in AZ, the UV is high and the evaporation rate is high. I have to add water every 3-4 days in the pond, so water exchanging is really not needed, as I add water to the pond more often than someone out in a more humid and non-desert environment.

So, with a 2,200+ gallon pond, with a bio-filter, bottom aeration disc, pond plants, and only 3 - 6" Koi, 1 Red Slider Turtle, will I need to drain the pond every year? Are not Koi bottom feeders and basically clean up the bottom of the pond, as do the pond plants?